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Philosophy!&
Philosophy!
I would consider philosphy to be the single most important invention in human times. Without it, there would be no wheel, no technology, no mathematics, no religion, nothing created by people. Here's my philosophy (don't be offended)
Things only exist as how we can sense them. I sese my calculator to be blue, therefore for all intents and purposes, it is blue. I sense my fingers to be typing, therefore for all intents and purposes, they they are typing. We can't tell what matter 'really is' as we are limited by our senses. There is, in one section, your mind, where, you are trapped, only able to peek through the window of our senses, which may be shaded. Outside is reality, but one cannot know what it actually is, as we cannot observe anything except what our senses tell us. I could be upside down, dancing witha pony, but as I sense I am sitting at my computer, that is only what I can know. In the mind, there are you thoughts and feelings, where you intepret things. You all could sense the world very differently than me, but we'd refer to it the same way, as we'd think we'd be seeing the same thing. Your 'red' could be my 'blue' but we both call it red, so it is red. In fact, I can't know whether you actually exist or not, or if you are just chat-bots programmed to fool me. But, I seriously doubt that, as you all act very human. So, in short, we can only sense the world as we are able to, and we can never know what reality really is.
So, what are you views on the world?
submitted by Pirocks/Enceladus
(July 18, 2009 - 7:44 pm)
(July 18, 2009 - 7:44 pm)
Hm yeah. I dunno if animals have souls - I mean, sometimes it seems like it, because they can be pretty darn smart - but I think they probably go to heaven or will be in heaven after Judgment because they just exist and aren't exactly evil or good.
(July 23, 2009 - 5:58 pm)
How do you know that animals don't have morals or a sense of salvation? Or that they aren't aware of God? Animals seem very connected with God, in my opinion. They live life peacefully, which is what God wants from them. Whereas we humans, as a group, live life in war, inner or outer, and do little to protect Earth. There are a few of us who try to be kind and do things with God in mind, but many of us don't. So as a species, I think we are carrying God's will poorly.
(July 23, 2009 - 9:55 pm)
This is because humans are corrupted by sin. Since animals aren't, they don't do bad things, except for turning against us as a result of Adam & Eve's mistake. I think if animals did have a sense of salvation, God would have mentioned that somewhere in the Bible. However, because animals have no sin, what cause was there to save them?
God's love is greater for us than animals because again, we are made in His image; He even says we have more worth than animals: Matthew 10:29-31 says "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall from the ground apart from the Father's will. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."
(July 24, 2009 - 11:08 am)
Well maybe we were worth more than animals at the time when the Bible was written, but the animals grew wiser and better. And remember that Bible verse I used just now, about the future? It talked about animals not harming people, and then said that the Earth would be filled with the knoweledge of the Lord. I think that implies that the animals will, at some point, have knoweledge of the Lord, if they don't already.
(July 24, 2009 - 1:05 pm)
Well, that wouldn't make sense, though, because if we can say "oh, but that was when the Bible was written", then what's the point of following and believing what the Bible says? We can say, "Oh, Jesus had to die back then, because humans were so much more corrupted than they are now, but we don't need His salvation now." Animals haven't really changed since Jesus said that about us being worth more than animals. And yeah, I agree that one day the entire earth, including animals, will know about God, but that doesn't make them worth more than us.
(July 24, 2009 - 1:48 pm)
I never said they were worth more than us. I only said as much. And the reason I'd put that part of the Bible up there again is because you'd said if animals had any knoweledge of salvation, the Bible would say so. Well the Biblle basically says 'someday they will'.
Anyway, I believe that there are some truths that last forever, and some that only last for a period of time. You might say that any truth in the Bible lasts forever, but what about "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"? That's in the Bible, but later, it was contradicted ("Forgive your brother not 7 times, but 77 times). And do you think every truth in it that changes will be contradicted? You might think so, and that's perfectly fine. I, however, do not.
(July 24, 2009 - 3:08 pm)
I pretty much agree with everything Amy has been saying. First of all, as I recall, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth had to do with the Hebrew judicial system. And forgiving your brother is on a personal basis; it is something Jesus calls us to do. I think animals do not have or need a knowledge of salvation; they never sinned. But I think it is very possible they have a knowledge of God, and I suspect they will be in heaven.
(July 26, 2009 - 6:52 pm)
And you know the bible is true... why?
(July 24, 2009 - 4:06 pm)
Well... We've kind of acknoweledged that pretty much all the people taking a major part in this debate are Christians. If you don't know already, Christians believe that the Bible is God's word, so... gese, we believe it's true. It's just a part of our religeon. If anyone who doesn't believe it's true (like you, presumably) starts taking a major part here, we would need to stop. But since we all believe it, we can use it. Does that make sense?
(July 24, 2009 - 7:45 pm)
@ Ima: Good reasoning. But I firmly believe that humans are a higher level of being than animals. I do not dispute that animals can feel emotions, but they don't feel as acutely as humans. They act /mainly/ on instinct- perhaps not /entirely/, but for the most part. Humans are more complex and by far more intelligent.
@ Willa: Perhaps as a species, but not necessarily as individuals. For instance, today I went to a few bookstores. All I saw were Twilight-related things and Michael Jackson stuff. And late at a *children's* toy store (my younger siblings were there), I didn't even know what half the stuff was- a bunch of video games and doohickeys like that. (I was like, "Whaaaa?") And yet more twi-stuff. So that would be indicative of general coruptedness in society. And yet, the individuals at the stores were all very helpful and patient. You could say they're obliged to, working there and all, but I think that they werenice people trying to do the right thing, and therefore carrying out God's will rather well.
Also: Again, what is a chat-bot exactly?
(July 24, 2009 - 11:44 am)
It's basically a robot that can sort of hold a conversation. You can see some at jabberywacky (although I'm not sure if those are actually robots . . .) Or, you can look up the A.L.I.C.E. chatbot. They're fun to play around with :)
(July 24, 2009 - 1:08 pm)
Mary Liz, what you said to me cannot be proved. I disagree with a lot of it, and as I've said (at least twice now), smarter doesn't always mean better.
As for the part you were saying to Willa, who's to say animals can't carry out God's will? They've saved human lives before (and not always for a reward) too many times for me to list specific examples.
And if animals aren't important, and can't carry out God's will, explain this: There was a lioness. The rest of her pride had all died, and she had to live alone (really hard for a lion - they're not used to it). She found an oryx calf without a mother. Instead of eating the calf, which would've been her instinct, she kept the oryx by her side and protected it from danger. Local humans noticed this, and when they talked about her, they used a name which, in Swahili (which is what most people spoke in that area) means 'blessed one'. Eventually, a much larger lion came along and ate the oryx calf, and there was nothing the lioness could do. She wasn't strong enough to fight the lion - in fact, she was starving. She couldn't go hunting while caring for an herbivorous oryx! When that oryx died, the lioness stayed near the deathplace as if mourning. Lions usually only do this when members of their own pride die! After this, the lioness adopted about 6-8 more orphaned oryx calves (one at a time). Most of them died, but the last one's true mother was found, and he/she/it survived! This lioness was going against all instinct - if she wasn't doing God's will, I don't know who ever was! I promise you, this story is absolutely true. If you don't think animals can do God's will, explain this, please! I know this sort of thing doesn't happen very often, but it did!
(July 24, 2009 - 1:42 pm)
I love your reasoning skills, Ima. I really do. You're an excellent arguer. And I'm *so* glad that you remembered my name. You're amazingly persausive. Or maybe it's just that I'm going on vacation tomorrow (does strange things to the brain, that).
I don't dispute that story about the lioness. Or the one about your dog. *cough* OR the one regarding the chimpanzees and the potato-washing. Etc. Those are all very good examples of animals having souls, or feelings, or being able to make the right choices. I still believe that animals act mainly on instinct. And that humans are of higher levels of being than animals. In the Bible, there's a verse about God loving the birds and the animals, and loving humans even more. *is too lazy to get exact verse* I also agree that animals can have profound impacts on human lives, and sometimes even save them. However. Animals are gifts given to us by God to take care of and respect, as all gifts should be. They have nowhere near the intellect that humans are endowed with. They are not considered God's children, as we humans are. I do not think animals have souls, per se, but I do believe that they can go to Heaven.
It was quite pleasant debating with you, Ima, and I think that this was very constructive. I would normally try and rebut that last post of yours. But, as I already said, I don't think there's much more that can be taken away from this discussion. I have learned a few things; you have hopefully also learned a few things. This was very enjoyable. :)
But... *clears throat* I think we've scared Pirocks off of his own thread. *grins sheepishly* Shall we return to philosophy? :)
(July 24, 2009 - 6:27 pm)
No, no. You haven't scared me. I've been frequenting the thread, reading, and not posting. Mainly because I think the entire argument to be irrelevant to my beliefs, as I don't believe in God, souls, or heaven.
So, back to philosophy! *please*
(Anything I refer to in the next paragraph is assuming it exists. Which I'm not sure about.)
I don't believe animals are on a lower level than humans. Yes, we have technology and stuff, but animals are much more adept a staying alive. If you had a lion, a human, and a gazelle stranded in the desert, who would survive? The lion and gazelle. The human would become lion chow in a few hours.
NEW Philosophy discussion:
Ethics!
What are your ethics? How do you rate actions? How would you behave in these situations (I will be tallying the results):
1. There are 10 orphans on a train track. A train is rushing toward them, and they're tied down so they can't get away. On the other track, there is one orphan, tied down so he can't get away. There is a lever you can pull, that will switch the train tracks. You don't know anything about the orphans. Do you pull the lever?
2. It's the same setup as before, except the person on the other track is your best friend. Do you pull the lever?
3. Same as the first, except the 10 orphans are juvenile deliquents. Do you pull the lever?
4. Same as first, except the orphan that is on the other track is destined to cure cancer/ elimanate disease/ become a genius. Do you pull the lever?
5. Same as first, except the 10 orphans are destined to become great world leaders/ geniuses. Do you pull the lever?
(July 25, 2009 - 3:37 pm)
My reaction is the same for all 5: UNTIE THE ORPHANS!
(July 25, 2009 - 10:17 pm)