PRONOUNS HELP PLEASE!!!

Chatterbox: Down to Earth

PRONOUNS HELP PLEASE!!!

PRONOUNS HELP PLEASE!!!

So. Umm. I don't know how to explain this except by starting at the very beginning (a very good place to start... anyone get this reference? If so, a cookie for you!) because I am more comfortable writing large quantities (sorry admins. I just... yeah.) So. 3 years ago, I was a very ignorant little girl. I lived a life of sunshine and rainbows, I was spoiled - well, I still am, but I'm much more aware of it now - oblivious, and knew nothing of the troubles of the world. My friend once told me that police were giving out toys to kids to persuade them they were good, and I was like, why would they need to? Aren't they good anyway? *sigh* The ignorance of childhood. I probably still don't know a lot, but I make more of an effort to be knowledgeable. Anyways, that summer, between one grade and the next, I met up with my friend who liked to talk about crushes and stuff for summer school. In her mind, I was very innocent because I never once have said a bad word (still true, I don't count two words though, bc the first one is the name of a goddess in Norse Mythology and I'm not religious, the second one bc it's a donkey and they use it in Narnia and it's featured in one of my favorite of my dad's wise sayings (my dad accidentally said it once when he was explaining something). And even then, I only use those words talking about mythology or quoting my dad (who didn't use it in a "bad" way btw, no swearing or whatever)) and because, as I have already established, I didn't know much about the world at the time (we were doing a discussion of The Greenglass House in class (which I had already read and loved even then) and one of the ppl was like, "Milo's sus (not a spoiler)", and I, the younger, was like "whaaa??? (oc, I raised my hand before I said it, and phrased the question in a very polite way, points for my perceived innocence)". Now "sus" is used regularly by me and others alike.). Anyways. So, when she was talking about "gay" people, no offense, I said, "isn't that ppl who are really happy?" Hence, my introduction to the world of LGBTQIA+ (well, kinda introduction, most of what I know is from books and reading, so I was more introduced when I started devouring material and stuff about the subject).

Now skip to present day. I'm an advocate. I learn about a subject, then I lecture persistently and passionately about it (you guys may have seen an example of this on my gendered reading thread). I feel very strongly about LGBTQIA+ rights, even though I keep silent about it (yes, I lecture only in my head, in my imagination, in daydreams, to close friends, to my unwilling brother, once to my mom when she was saying my cousin who's male is weird for liking Disney princesses, but never really where it counted. Unless it came to bugs. Then my instincts would kick in and I'd be like DON'T SQUISH THEM WHAT DID THEY EVER DO TO YOU!!! And run over and maybe occasionally out-of-characterly push someone. It's just easier to defend that than... you know. Things ppl rly have strong opinions on. Otherwise, I am my usual shy self. (But I do a pretty good death glare)). Even though I'm a huge supporter of LGBTQIA+ rights, I don't really feel connected to it. I barely know anyone who's LGBTQIA+ (this is not rly present present day, it's like months/years ago present day, when I knew only 1 person who is LGBTQIA+, and this person was just someone I knew of, not really knew), and I feel much more strongly about Girl Power and Stop Asian Hate. I am totally and completely a girl, female, she/her, wholly. When I want to do something, I say you're a strong, quiet girl, and you can do this, insert real name. I still do. And I still fully believe it. Until. You guys know I transferred to a different school. I talk about it on every thread. Something about my new school is that it actually considers the LGBTQIA+ community. There're gender neutral restrooms. People don't assume. Some teachers go by Mx. But what's really important, is you have to introduce your pronouns. And it's a fancy private school with rotating classes, so you have to do it many times in two days. The first day, I said she/her, completely fine with it. I think. Maybe it was already starting by then. The second day, I had to write pronouns on a piece of paper. And seeing she/her, in pencil like that? It felt wrong. It felt plain wrong. And I was scared. Don't get me wrong, I know having different pronouns that the ones you were assigned at birth is perfectly fine. It's perfectly normal. I just didn't expect it to happen to me. I had built so much of my identity around being female. It was something I held on to, grasped, when things were tough. I was so so proud of it. I was happy, yes, Ik how that sounds, but I was happy because of it. I was female! How awesome was that? And then I started to lose that feeling. But anyways. I like to sometimes narrate my actions in my mind. I always use she/her. That was the second time I noticed. That's when I thought, this is getting real. This is real. Right? Right? How do you know? All those books... This Is Our Rainbow, Summer of Impossibilities, Fresh Ink, especially Too Bright to See... this is what they described it as. A feeling of right. A feeling of wrong. A knowing. And yet, I'm sentimental. I surround myself with familiar, comforting things, perhaps hold on too tight, know, very confidently, who I am. I thought I did. I also thought this strange feeling would go away after a few days. But it's been 4 days now, and I'm not so certain anymore. It, and I know I keep on using "it", which is probably disrespectful, but that's how I feel about it, seems to actually be getting worse. Two days ago, I was still comfortable with "'she', though not 'her'". Then it switched. Now both are only sometimes. "They" seems to be worming its way into my thoughts more. Yesterday, I still considered myself a girl. A few minutes ago, writing that sentence around the top of this long long thing, sorry again, "I was a very ignorant little girl". I'm even starting to doubt that. I am a demigirl. Does that truly feel better, or am I convincing myself it does? Is my mind playing tricks on me? 

So, I guess what I really need help on, are tips on how to adjust, how to embrace my new identity and let go of my old one. Thank you so so much if you read all that. Thank you admins. I don't know why you wouldn't, but please please please post this, preferably the whole of it, because I really need this to be posted. I really need people to know the whole story, which I feel is really important. I'm just scared and uncertain when life is usually a breeze, and... just please please please please please please please post this admins. Please. At least consider it. If you really can't (and I mean really really can't), please give me some way to get a copy of this. I at least need to keep all these feelings, look them over again. Thank you. And thank you to this whole CB, to all you CBers, you're perfect beyond measure, and I mean every single word of this. You have changed my life. You have given me support, and love, and laughs, and awe, and appreciation. You have given me a safe safe, a place where I can be myself, surrounded by friends, laughing with wild, reckless abandon, unafraid to be my whole true self (and using many caps and exclamations). You've given me a home. I love you all. Platonically, of course!

(btw, I am aware this doesn't really sound like me how I present myself on the CB. Where all the all caps?? The overused exclamations?? But I promise you, this is me. Just a different side. Though, as you can see, this side isn't any shorter :))

submitted by CelineBurning Bright, age As Needed, The FireMist Sea
(August 28, 2023 - 12:53 am)

yea man the cb is awesome. its okay to not be completely sure who or what you are or want to be. im probably genderfluid, idk, but the cb gave me a place to figure that out without being judged. im glad to see its working the same way for other people. just know that you dont have to have yourself completely figured out, the self is as much a journey as it is anything else.

i have a friend who talks about "queer fractals" as a joke mostly, but its kind of true. humans are multifaceted, theres always more to learn. at first i freaked out when i realized i was attracted to people outside the gender i was "supposed" to be attracted to, and four years later i think gender is mostly a social construct anyhow. change is scary, but its supposed to happen.

submitted by Lord Entropy
(August 29, 2023 - 4:21 pm)

Wow. Thank you guys, so so much. I've said this so many times already. But that doesn't mean it's not genuine every time I say it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And, @admins, I also already thanked you guys, but I want to thank you again. You made this all possible (this is starting to sounds like the credits of Wild Kratts). 

@Pangolin, I didn't know that they were so many options out there! I'll look into a lot of these, genderfae and girlflux in particular sound very appealing, and it's nice to know that so much is possible and that there are names for such things. And thank you for answering my unspoken question which I was scared of including cuz I didn't want to offend anyone, that gender and pronouns don't have to be connected. This was everything and so much more what I was excepting and wanted and needed. And, I shall do that thing you suggested in the age box, I wasn't really attached to "As Needed" anyways (tho I may occasionally forget). Thank you!!!
@Peri, what I said to Pangolin up above. "Girlflux" is sounding very much like what I'm experiencing, and it's truly awesome that it's a term, albeit a lesser known term. It's good to know that I have so much support right now, a little can go a long way and this CB right here is much more than a little (that probably isn't the way you're supposed to use that saying but oh well). Also, thank you and Pangolin for also reminding me that things don't have to be labeled! I might use questioning for now as I do more research and figure it out.
@Poinsettia, you raise all good, valid points. No offense taken at all! Everything you said is very true (at least, in my opinion, I can see how that might happen). However, I think that it wasn't really connected to the school, per se, it's that it was connected to actually having to think about my pronouns rather than just them being there. Idk. I will try to take this slowly and not jump right in, though. And, about a "right way" for girls to be, this probably isn't a very popular opinion, but the phrases "tomboy" and "girly girl" bother me. Like, if a girl likes climbing trees and stuff, she's not really a "girl" anymore, but a "boy"? And one named "Tom", at that? And, if she likes fashion and stuff, that makes her a true, actual girl? Or at least labeled as such? What if you like both? Thanks for asking that question, I think it's always better to ask and have clarification than to go on on your confused, ignorant way (not saying you were confused or ignorant before, oc)! And, thank you so much for the compliment!! The same goes for you, too! That does help. :)
@Peri@Poinsettia, thank you for those bolded and italicized words, and, yess, everything you said!! Btw, sorry if it felt like I was saying that bc if I'm not fully feminine or whatever I can't support females, totally did not mean that at all!
@Tsuki, thank you too, because right now I'm in the process of thanking everyone and I agree too!! 
@Blackfooted Bobcat, I know you were talking to Poinsettia, but thank you for that as well (see my response to Pangolin and Poinsettia). And, yess, no "right way" to be a boy either (BOO GENDERED READING!!! And down with stereotypes!! :)), yay to my brother who loves Peppa Pig (I mean, it is pretty funny) even if he can't explain why he immediately discounts anything with princesses as bad, and yay to my dad's friend's son who loves to draw Disney Princesses!! Yay to those boys who love to play sports and read scifi and stuff too! Yay to everyone!!! Thanks for adding on that thing at the end, too (or at the beginning of the end?).
@Hex, it's great to know I'm not the only one going through this. Wish you luck with what you're going through too, and we're always here for you also (however, it does seem hard having ppl you know irl here too if you want to talk about irl problems. Personally, this is why I'm glad I don't, but thanks for sharing! Congratulations, you just did not run and hide from your problems!). Love your location per usual, btw!
@Lord Entropy, thank you!! I'm so grateful to everyone on here, and glad that I decided to share this (and burden everyone with my problems, sorry for that). Yes, that's exactly how I feel about the CB!! And, a wise quote as usual ("just know that you dont have to have yourself completely figured out, the self is as much a journey as it is anything else."). :) Gender is definitely a social construct, but I feel like it's still real, if not true. We make it real and we make it a problem, when really it's just something natural that happens that we feel the need to make a big fuss out of. And, change is normal too. I've always had a hard time coping with change, but I'm learning, and it's getting better now. And, great that you know and can accept who you are (actually, great for everyone on here! Including people who have known since forever. And including people who are still on the journey. In fact, the journey is probably never ending). Humans are, indeed, multifaceted beings, and there really is always more to learn.
Thank you all again! Including @admins (and for posting this long thing, too. For posting long things like this every day, a lot of them from me), yes, I started and ended with this, but it's true. This has helped so so much, with my sincere gratitude and thanks, thank you. :)
submitted by CelineBurning Bright, age She/they(?, THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
(August 29, 2023 - 8:07 pm)

oh yeah, genders definitely real.  its a social construct, but its sill real. 

i think probably the answer to most problems is "why not both?" 

submitted by Lord Entropy
(August 29, 2023 - 8:53 pm)

yes down with gendered reading!  one of my best friends when i was little was this cisgender boy who LOVED everything girly.  he would wear a dres to school most days, and when his birthday rolled around all his family was getting him like toy trucks and stuff cause he was a boy and he was like "cool thanks" and then opened a present that was a rapunzel doll and was SO happy and excited

submitted by Tsuki the Skywolf
(August 29, 2023 - 10:06 pm)

I'm a little touchy about this subject.

*sighs*

Please stick to who you are, not who those people out there want you to be. Now I'll say, as a person who realises who you can be and are, and hopefully a friend, I love you, (hopefully that came across as friendly, sorry Admins, if not).

submitted by Nyxie, age eons, smwhr
(August 30, 2023 - 3:11 pm)

Wow...Celine...your post was beautiful...

Aaah sorry off-topic.

@Nyxie, I totally agree with you. I've always been a she/her ever since I was born and I plan to stay that way.

@Celine, I think what you're feeling is peer pressure. Just because other people used to be she/her or he/him have converted to they/them doesn't mean you have to do that too. If everyone at your school is they/them or other pronouns that aren't she/her or he/him, that's just them. You're the only person who can control yourself and we can't control other people. In my opinion, to be they/them is unnatural since we didn't even used to have pronouns. We could just say Male or Female and that was that. But now, people have decided to mix those into a smoothie. It honestly doesn't matter what other people think of your pronouns, it's what you think of yourself. It's okay to be different from everyone in your school. I'm the youngest and probably shortest person in Jr. High at my school because I skipped 1st grade, but I'm proud of that. If you want, you can stand out and make the change. It's okay to be the only she/her in your school. It makes you stand out.

I hope this isn't just a copy of what everyone else is saying and that it's gonna help <3 

submitted by Rora
(August 30, 2023 - 8:59 pm)

im not sure id refer to it as a conversion. it definitely isnt in my case, im perfectly happy being who i feel that i am. but youre definitely right in that you can feel peer pressured into being something you really arent. im not saying "everyone should be they/them" im saying that if you feel that you might be different, then its okay to examine that, its okay to ask for help, its okay to try and experiment and see what feels right. this is the perfect time to do that. were kids and we dont have to have ourselves figured out yet. if you figure out youre she/her and thats it, then thats fine. nobodys going to pressure you into being something different.

submitted by Lord Entropy
(August 30, 2023 - 9:45 pm)

Hey Rora, I have a couple things to respond to in your comment. Using they/them is not unnatural. If you feel uncomfortable about it, think of it this way: are people who use non-gendered pronouns hurting you in any way, or causing harm? No, they're just being themselves; some people are nonbinary in the same way that you're a girl.

Also, the English nerd in me wants to mention that pronouns have always existed in  English even before we started talking about them so much. They're just a part of speech, like adjectives. When people refer to you, they use "she" and "her", right? Those are pronouns just like they and them. So are "we" and "I" and "you"--pronouns are just words that we use to refer to ourselves and others. And people have been using "they/them" pronouns for individuals for centuries, without even realizing it: if you're referring to some hypothetical person, I would bet that you'd naturally say it. For example, "if someone watched all the movies in the world, how long would it take them?"

I also don't think that Celine was implying that NOBODY at their school uses she/her pronouns, just that there's more diversity and openness about LGBTQ+ identities there. Which is a good thing! So many people are identifying with nonbinary genders now, not because of peer pressure, but because society has finally realized (on some level) that gender does exist outside the binary. Just like race (also a social construct!) isn't limited to Black and White, people are a beautiful mixture of feelings and identities.

Anyway, I hope this helps you understand it a bit better :) *disclaimer: I am cis, so if anyone has a better way to explain this, please do*

submitted by Lupine@Rora, she/her
(August 30, 2023 - 10:14 pm)

I definitely agree that peer pressure is a thing, and you should try to be true to yourself and proud to be different. That it's good to think things through, and rely on who you are instead of who other people are. But it's also very true (or it sounds that way, given how their post is written) that Celine is legitimately questioning her pronouns because that's who they are. This isn't just about peer pressure. 

But I disagree with some of what you've said. I think it can be harmful to say using they/them pronouns is "unnatural." I think pronouns are just another part of your identity and expression, and people sholud be able to choose which pronouns to use! There's nothing unnatural about not being cis, or about using different pronouns than those assigned at birth.

I'm sorry if any of this comes off as rude or if I got something wrong, that wasn't my intention. Everyone, please don't hesitate to add your own ideas. 

submitted by Hex, age φ, glazed in whoopsy-blue
(August 30, 2023 - 10:14 pm)

I agree with Hex, Lupine, and Lord Entropy, you already said everything I wanted to say and thank you for that (also it saves me time! MY TIME MANAGEMENT SKILLS ARE NOW AMAZING!!! (yes, that doesn't mean that at all, but I'd like to think so, so yes they are unless I say otherwise)). Also, @Rora, you raise some good, valid points too! I think people were also using "one" as a pronoun in addition to what Lupine was saying, though, and there are animals that are basically LGBTQIA+ in my opinion too. Like, worms are both male and female, and some plants are... is it called hermophophile?? I probably just spelled that all kinds of wrong, sorry. Intersex, though, I think. And some fish change from male to female as they grow, so I really do think it's normal! Oc, this is just my opinion, as I've already said...

also, thanks @Hex and @Lupine and @anyone else I didn't see for using she/they!! That was really nice :)  and when I read that I was actually feeling very comfortable with she/they so that was like... welcome surprise!

btw, yes, there are tons of ppl at my school who are also cis female or cis male too! And that's definitely perfectly fine also (also yes to the race thing, which it does sometimes feel like people only think like Black/White are the only races, which I know that's probably not what people think, but that's what it feels like (like the same school chose two diverse books for the whole school and family to read (great idea btw) and both stories were Black stories which made me kinda mad though it shouldn't have because both were good stories that needed to be told, but... what about Native Americans? And Asians? And Pacific Islanders? And Australians? And Latinos? And other indigenous peoples? And all the many many other races too (I forgot so many... but if I keep on going it's gonna be forever)? Also... aren't "Black" people African or wherever people? And "White" people English or wherever they're from (like Russian or Armenian or Irish or whatever) people too? That always confused me, unless that's what you're talking about? And there are people like "Chinese Canadians" and "African Americans" too...)). No offense to anyone as always oc!

Feiya says UMINC. Yes, Feiya! That fits this perfectly! This is "Umm... incorporated (or whatever "inc" stands for, I forget)"!!

submitted by CelineBurninConfused, age She/her(?, The FireMist Sea
(August 31, 2023 - 1:32 am)

....I'm sorry this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, just when you said "Chinese Canadians", it made me think of Frank Zhang...  

submitted by Rainbow, age Teen, Serenading the moon
(August 31, 2023 - 6:27 pm)

right. nothing is "one or the other." you can be both, or neither. you can be what you feel like. its allowed. also, queer folk have always existed, historically, even in ancient times. its not like this came out of nowhere. weve always been here, we just suddenly feel safe enough to admit it.

submitted by Lord Entropy
(August 31, 2023 - 6:42 pm)

First off, I’m doubting it’s truly peer pressure. People merely existing as themselves is not peer pressure. If it’s peer pressure when there are queer people, does that mean that cis people just existing (like, probably your friends and favorite musicians and all that just being there) is peer pressure? No! It sounds like Celine has never thought about their pronouns in conjunction with themself before (I’ll be using they/them for them because a.) they’re not sure and those are neutral and b.) they seem to be questioning using they/them so this might help. This doesn’t mean that they necessarily use those pronouns or have to choose them, but if they do that's great too). Now that they actually have to think about that, it sounds like they’re legitimately distressed. If people were making them feel bad for being cis (regardless of whether they are or not), or saying that using the pronouns you’re assigned at birth is inherently bad, or anything like that, it would be. But people just existing is not, and never will be, peer pressure. And frankly, it’s unfair to call it that. (From someone who was too oblivious to socialness to realize I was being horribly bullied for many things *thumbs up* And therefore didn’t know how to do anything about it.) 

Also, you’re completely wrong about how it apparently used to just be male and female. First off, many, many cultures have other genders. Then white people colonized them and tried to push them out of existence. The western binary of gender is just that - the western binary of gender. And people try to make others fit when they don’t. Even then, intersex people have and always have existed; if gender is entirely related to sex, what are they supposed to do? (I’m not trying to use intersex people as just a talking point; obviously their relations to gender are complex and numerous. Many are comfortable being the gender they were assigned at birth. But even then, often horrible medical abuse happens to make them fit that stereotype.) also, even if there’s only male and female, you still have to support binary trans people.

Even besides that, it’s not only people deciding to “mix those into a smoothie”. Though being a mix of male/female (and possibly other things) or both is awesome, that’s not the only way. Many people have genders completely unrelated to male and female (hi! Kind of at least gender is weird); many people just don’t have a gender; there are infinite other ways that gender can present. 

Also, it shouldn’t matter what other people think of your pronouns, but the truth is, that's only true if you're not queer. I’m deeply uncomfortable with he, she, and they, so I’m trying to figure out what I’d even do if I came out. Changing pronouns at all, even if they are the slightly more accepted ones (he and she mostly; even they/them is still not very accepted), is hard. And if your pronouns don’t match up with what others think your gender is, that can be dangerous, even if you’re cis. 

Lastly, good for cis people to be able to experiment with pronouns. It’s good for people assigned he or she to try things out and then realize no, maybe i do use he or she. It’s just that people make danger about it.

I feel like others (especially @Lupine; thanks :D i think you put very well, thanks for helping even though you’re cis. Potential nitpick, pronouns are inherently nongendered so they/them isn’t “nongendered pronouns”, but not bad at all :D) have addressed your comment that they/them is unnatural (which is not true) and I’m tiring so I’ll stop here. I actually typed (typed! On computer keyboard!) all of that. Which hard. Anyway. post. 

submitted by Blackfooted Bobcat
(August 31, 2023 - 11:56 am)

YESS!!! To all of this :) and, thanks for using they/them! I really have to try to use that, even if only in my head, more...  and, congrats!! Typing! I RLY have to try to use homerow keys more... but it's just so much quicker and more accurate if I do my one hand two hands peck roll typing (I def just made that name up but it fits)

submitted by CelineBurninTyping, age Homerow, Lost on the Keyboard
(September 1, 2023 - 1:06 am)

Hey Celine, awesome post! I don't have any advice, but it seems like others have said some really great things (thanks Cloud Bunny and pangolin for teaching me a bunch of gender terms I hadn't heard of before!). I just wanted to pop in and say that I read This Is Our Rainbow, and it was amazing. Have you read Camp QUILTBAG? It's a sort of follow-up book that two of the authors wrote about their short story characters.

Also, your gendered reading thread sounds very interesting--could you paste the link? I couldn't find it on the CB. 

Good luck!

submitted by Lupine
(August 30, 2023 - 10:21 pm)