Chatterbox: Chirp at Cricket
School project survey
Hiii y’all! This is a survey I created for a school project. If y’all would kindly fill it out, it’d be greatly appreciated <333
How can we normalize representation of
minorities without centering the story around
the rep?
Thank you for taking this survey! I am going to use the results of this to plan a story with characters that’s as good as I can get to match what the people want.
In regards to media, I mainly mean stories (books, TV, movies, podcasts, etc). Rep includes disabilities, body types, ethnicity, traumas, identities, etc.
I am not making the questions required, however, please answer as many as you can in as much detail as
possible. Thank you <3
Representing Diversity
General questions (not about specific groups, but an overview)
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First of all, do you prefer stories centering around representation ("rep") or having rep woven into the story?
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Centering around rep
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Rep woven in
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Other:
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What do you think media is doing now rep-wise, and do you think it's good/working? Why?
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What do you think is an appropriate amount of diversity for any given story/media, and are there any reasons it should vary?
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Should writers/people creating/producing media go into the project thinking about plot or rep first?
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Plot
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Rep
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Other:
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How do you think rep should be subtly woven in? What do you want to see? (eg: scars, symptoms, etc)
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Is the current representation in media playing too much into stereotypes?
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Strongly disagree
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Disagree
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Neutral
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Agree
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Strongly agree
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Adding onto the previous question, explain your answer.
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Do you think there is accurate representation in media today?
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Yes
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No
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Other:
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About the previous question: Why?
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What are some of your pet peeves when it comes to portraying diversity/rep in media (being as specific as possible is greatly appreciated)?
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How far should people go in regards to representation?
Specific groups
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What groups do you think have the best/most rep?
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What groups do you think media has enough rep of?
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What groups do you think media lacks in rep of? (Doesn't mean what you want to see, but in general)
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What groups do you want to see more of in media?
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In your opinion, which has more rep (disability version)
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Invisible/Neuro (eg: ADHD, Autism, Dyslexia, etc)
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Physical (eg: Cerebral Palsy, ambulatory wheelchair users, etc)
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Other:
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Thinking about a minority group as a whole, there are typically subsets of that group (eg: LGBTQIAP2-S+ has many identities, neurodiversity has a wide variety, etc). What specific subset(s) do you think needs more recognition in media?
Stories
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What types of stories/plots do you see a lot of (Could be in stories that have representation like this, but not necessarily)?
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What types of stories/plots do you want to see more of (Could be for stories that have good rep, but not necessarily)?
Examples
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Examples of books/movies/TV/podcasts/other media with not-so-great rep and why? (You can spoil the story, I don't mind)
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21. Examples of books/movies/TV/podcasts/other media with good rep and why? (You can spoil the story, I don't mind)
Thank you!!!
(November 19, 2024 - 2:54 pm)
oohhhh interesting! would you be open to rambles about representation too? Because I have a LOT of thoughts about it
(November 19, 2024 - 5:56 pm)
Oh, 100%! That'd be awesome :D
(November 19, 2024 - 8:58 pm)
huh that's a cool project idea!
First of all, do you prefer stories centering around representation ("rep") or having rep woven into the story? I think I prefer when the rep is woven in, it feels more natural and interesting. I do think centering around the rep has it's place though, if it's accurate.
What do you think is an appropriate amount of diversity for any given story/media, and are there any reasons it should vary? I like natural stories (with rep woven in) and sometimes it feels a little artificial if everyone is completely diverse and that's emphasized. I guess it depends on the point of the story (if the plot is revolving around rep or not) and the mood; like does it feel like different rep is just a checklist or if it's actually interesting. I don't have specific examples though.
Should writers/people creating/producing media go into the project thinking about plot or rep first? Plot! Just focusing on rep feels artifical to me, although I'm sure it could be done well.
How do you think rep should be subtly woven in? What do you want to see? (eg: scars, symptoms, etc) Some mention of how it affects daily life/character development without making whatever the rep is solely a reason for differences and trauma. I don't like it when a specific issue becomes the only personality trait for a character.
Do you think there is accurate representation in media today? Yes and no. I think there are definitely places with great accurate representation and also some without. To a certain extent, I think sometimes diversity goes to far: if your entire set of characters is a certain identity, it feels manufactured to me. I think I see this most often with queerness: while I understand maybe people gravitate towards others sharing identity aspects, often all the characters are some flavor of queer. And maybe that's the point of the story, but it can frustrate me.
What are some of your pet peeves when it comes to portraying diversity/rep in media (being as specific as possible is greatly appreciated)? Ugh I just really hate it when a specific identity trait is all I ever see of a character. If someone's entire personality is that they're [x identity], or if their personality/actions is entirely trauma-focused and that is a result of [x identity] it's very annoying. One-dimensional characters are the worst.
What groups do you think media has enough rep of? I don't know if there is a sense of enough. I read/listen to/watch things that are skewed to identities I'm part of, so even if it feels like there's enough of some of that it's not representative of everyone.
In your opinion, which has more rep (disability version) I think invisible/neuro? But mostly inaccurate representation, so idk?
Thinking about a minority group as a whole, there are typically subsets of that group (eg: LGBTQIAP2-S+ has many identities, neurodiversity has a wide variety, etc). What specific subset(s) do you think needs more recognition in media? I'd say not specifically any group, but an intersectionality of various identities. That's harder to find well-developed imo.
What types of stories/plots do you want to see more of (Could be for stories that have good rep, but not necessarily)? Ones without miracle endings. Like I don't think [oh i struggle with this random thing] -> [wow i fixed my life with the power of friendship turns out its not a real issue i am happy now] is realistic or helpful. I'd rather have [oh i struggle with this random thing] -> [hm maybe i still struggle but [xxx plot thing]].
Examples of books/movies/TV/podcasts/other media with not-so-great rep and why? (You can spoil the story, I don't mind) um a lot of kids shows/movies/things? Like this is a random example because I saw someone's (Rainbow's maybe?) post on Random Thoughts/Things but Phineas and Ferb has a TON of clichés (like Baljeet). In the same vein, a lot of Disney stuff. A lot of kids stuff sugarcoats everything in my opinion; like even if it's not misrepresentation, even just lack of representation/diversity is also bad.
21. Examples of books/movies/TV/podcasts/other media with good rep and why? (You can spoil the story, I don't mind) I like Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive a lot; it's primarily plot-focused, but the characters have actual depth. And while they definitely have trauma stemming from various mental illnesses/whatever, it feels more realistic than manufactured. I think it has a pretty good depiction of depression, for example. I also like Alice Oseman for queer representation: it might be a little overdone but still mostly accurate. I also have a very foggy memory of reading these for school like five years ago but The Pants Project and Watch Us Rise were both books where the plot was basically representation of some identity which I thought were good.
idk I kind of rambled and said the same things over and over again but maybe this was helpful :)
(November 20, 2024 - 12:28 am)
This is such a cool survey!!! :DD I have to get to school soon but I will fill it out sometime later hopefully!
(November 20, 2024 - 10:20 am)
I am back! :)
First of all, do you prefer stories centering around representation ("rep") or having rep woven into the story?
I honestly love stories centering around rep. I mean, if you're going to include it, you might as well go all the way! Ofc, it's really good to have books that just have rep woven in too, and, hey, if it's a good book, no complaints here!
What do you think media is doing now rep-wise, and do you think it's good/working? Why?
Well, I think media is trying to diversify more, which is great :D I do think it's working, because... well, there is more representation out there, and it's accurate representation! I will say that some animated Asian characters in recent movies and tv shows could definitely look more Asian... as mentioned above, if you're going to do it, go all the way!
What do you think is an appropriate amount of diversity for any given story/media, and are there any reasons it should vary?
Huh. I guess just whatever fits for the story. If you can put diversity in, put diversity in!!!! But if not, then that's fine, but don't be hateful, and if you need to be, then somehow acknowledge/make clear that that's wrong. Sidenote: I love how Hamilton has such a diverse cast even though in reality, they definitely weren't as diverse :D
Should writers/people creating/producing media go into the project thinking about plot or rep first?
How do you think rep should be subtly woven in? What do you want to see? (eg: scars, symptoms, etc)
For like ethnic representation, definitely culture!!! :D food is amazing :)
Is the current representation in media playing too much into stereotypes?
Adding onto the previous question, explain your answer.
Do you think there is accurate representation in media today?
About the previous question: Why?
What are some of your pet peeves when it comes to portraying diversity/rep in media (being as specific as possible is greatly appreciated)?
as I said, Asian people can definitely look more Asian... :/
How far should people go in regards to representation?
Specific groups
What groups do you think have the best/most rep?
Black communities and Asian communities. And lgbtq+, actually. Besides those... eh, I'm probably not the best person to ask for this :)
What groups do you think media has enough rep of?
I don't think you can have enough rep of something, in the sense that if there's a story waiting to be told, then tell it! But it can definitely have more rep of other groups.
What groups do you think media lacks in rep of? (Doesn't mean what you want to see, but in general)
I think people with different body types, people with disabilities, and neurodivergent people
What groups do you want to see more of in media?
Asian and lgbtq+, always :P
In your opinion, which has more rep (disability version)
I think that there's so much diversity in invisible/neuro and physical disabilities, so you can't really have enough rep. The media tends to just focus on like one tiny part of all of that, I think, soo... I have to go do homework ahhhh
Thinking about a minority group as a whole, there are typically subsets of that group (eg: LGBTQIAP2-S+ has many identities, neurodiversity has a wide variety, etc). What specific subset(s) do you think needs more recognition in media?
Stories
What types of stories/plots do you see a lot of (Could be in stories that have representation like this, but not necessarily)?
Hardships related to rep, dealing with hate/injustice, lots of numbers (for OCD, and maybe others)
What types of stories/plots do you want to see more of (Could be for stories that have good rep, but not necessarily)?
Examples
Examples of books/movies/TV/podcasts/other media with not-so-great rep and why? (You can spoil the story, I don't mind)
Ooh might answer this one later... for now though, Eleanor and Park! Never read it, so I can't exactly judge, but from what I've heard... o_O no thank you.
21. Examples of books/movies/TV/podcasts/other media with good rep and why? (You can spoil the story, I don't mind)
(November 20, 2024 - 9:33 pm)
not sure what movies you're referring to, but i completely agree that a lot of asian characters are kind of whitewashed. examples: the inability to have a white/asian mixed character who doesn't have like. green eyes (ironically my favorite, the American Girl doll Kanani Akina, has green eyes, but it somehow feels more like they're just celebrating her being mixed vs being like "see, she has green eyes! She's a good Asian!"). the inability to have an important character who isn't a villain have remotely dark skin (i have literally never seen a character that has the skin the color or darker as my dad or grandma (excluding Kanani actually), let alone skin that isn't super clear, and his isn't even thattt dark). it's kind of like they think all Asians look like K-pop stars who have had lots of surgeries and products to look less Asian. not quite that bad, but it still annoys me.
i also think that "who has the most rep" depends on the specific group and the genre or age range. From what i've seen there's a lot of Asian MG and less in YA, for instance (i could be wrong though). Also, it seems like Asian books are always fun, compared to books about Black people, which tend to delve more into inequalities. and both of those are bad as trends, and also it probably drives the whole "Asians are basically white" sentiment you see sometimes (which is so ridiculous i'm not going to go into it here, but like sure. Especially consindering as a group our survival strategy mostly depends on being quiet and good and never speaking about racism and getting brutally torn down if we ever dare to so much as be upset about anything. Now i'm going into it.) there needs to be more fun fantasy Black books (i've seen more of those lately though!!), and more serious Asian books about racism. Also, at least at my libraries and looking online, most of the Asian books are Chinese and Korean. Which has led to me completely hating Japan and wishing I was Chinese or Korean, actually, but that's a different discussion and i hate Japan anyway :'D (not completely but. like any time Japan is brought up online, even if it's completely unrelated, people will be like "well Japan is actually a horrible country and has tons of issues!" and like yes. so does every country, and frankly have you seen the US? or, someone bringing up racism and then people are like "well Japan was atrocious during WWII and people like anime, racism against Japanese people doesn't exist." Which, not excusing WWII AT ALL, but also, like, if you're going to bring up WWII, at least acknowledge the internment camps, and if you're going to bring up anime, at least bring up how the vast majority of anime fans i have met or see online are really creepy and weird about Japan and frankly worse to me than the people who don't know anything. Like are lowkey slur-type words (about eyes and stuff, only my eyes aren't even monolid??? idk) okay when they come from an anime fan because they mean it in a "you're cool and exotic" way or because they "just like Japan and anime and they don't mean it?" (not an actual quote) What about picking apart like, food i eat, and categorizing it into "good and bad"? I think a lot of the people who think it's fine came before the big anime boom, tbh. now i'm ranting, but yeahhhh there's a lot of issues and it seems like there's this attitude that racism against Asians just doesn't matter, and it's so annoying.
(November 21, 2024 - 5:26 pm)
First of all, do you prefer stories centering around representation ("rep") or having rep woven into the story?
Rep woven in! I like it when it feels just like a part of the story and not directly broadcasted. Like just having a character be without making it a big deal.
What do you think media is doing now rep-wise, and do you think it's good/working? Why?
I think media is doing well in diversity and rep in general and just trying to include more, which is good.
What do you think is an appropriate amount of diversity for any given story/media, and are there any reasons it should vary?
Enough to make it noticeable but natural, like as I said before, not broadcasting it
Should writers/people creating/producing media go into the project thinking about plot or rep first?
Plot! Rep in my opinon should in most cases not be the main point of the story, instead simply be an important aspect
How do you think rep should be subtly woven in? What do you want to see? (eg: scars, symptoms, etc)
Like Celine said, culture and food! Symptoms also work, like not broadcasting it nor hiding it.
Is the current representation in media playing too much into stereotypes?
Between neutral and agree
Adding onto the previous question, explain your answer.
Although media has tried to step away from it, which is nice, there are often still stereotypes within stories and things like that, either with or without meaning to.
Do you think there is accurate representation in media today?
somewhat
About the previous question: Why?
Like I said before, the media tries to do its best to do an accurate representation, but generally it doesn't really represent the entirety of it, which is understandable, but still, it would be nice if it included more minorities and less mentioned groups that need rep
What are some of your pet peeves when it comes to portraying diversity/rep in media (being as specific as possible is greatly appreciated)?
The character with the diversity/rep being purely about the rep and the whole plot being just that. It's okay sometimes, but I generally prefer rep when its subtle and only a part of it. also when words or terms in different cultures, etc. are used incorrectly.
How far should people go in regards to representation?
enough to make them feel represented :)
What groups do you think have the best/most rep?
I think races like Asian and Black in general have the most rep
What groups do you think media has enough rep of?
is it possible to have that? idk
What groups do you think media lacks in rep of? (Doesn't mean what you want to see, but in general)
Neurodivergent people (especially nonverbal or severe) and indigenous people
What groups do you want to see more of in media?
same as Celine :) disabilities (physical and mental) as well
In your opinion, which has more rep (disability version)
maybe physical more? since they tend to have more accomodations
Thinking about a minority group as a whole, there are typically subsets of that group (eg: LGBTQIAP2-S+ has many identities, neurodiversity has a wide variety, etc). What specific subset(s) do you think needs more recognition in media?
maybe those who are multiracial, nonverbal autism, or those who belong in multiple groups
What types of stories/plots do you see a lot of (Could be in stories that have representation like this, but not necessarily)?
racial representation and women in power
What types of stories/plots do you want to see more of (Could be for stories that have good rep, but not necessarily)?
Neurodiversity and disabilities and lgbt and also Taiwanese characters!! There's a lot of Chinese and I would love to see more of Taiwanese (and its differences).
Examples of books/movies/TV/podcasts/other media with not-so-great rep and why? (You can spoil the story, I don't mind)
Music by Sia, which I've never watched but I've heard the summary and it's pretty bad, especially since it used a neurotypical actor to play an autistic character
21. Examples of books/movies/TV/podcasts/other media with good rep and why? (You can spoil the story, I don't mind)
I'm not entirely sure about good rep (unless I'm part of it) so I'll just list books that I thought were good (but i dont really know) And I would totally recommend any of these books!!
- Amari and the Night Brothers (Black rep that is woven in well and a fantasy/magic story!) and A Taste of Magic (same as Amari, highlights more Black rep with food)
- Inside Out and Back Again + When Clouds Touch Us (asian, especially vietnamese, which I dont see as much, rep)
- Hummingbird (disability, and although it was a big-ish part of it, it still has a plot to it and is pretty good, especially the ending!)
- Blended (mixed rep)
- Out of My Mind (more severe, nonverbal cerebral palsy rep)
- George (lgbt/trans rep) and Alice Austen Lived Here (nb rep) and Different Kinds of Fruit (lgbt rep in general)
- Meg, Jo, Beth, and Amy: A Graphic Novel, a modern retelling with more representation and is little women but in the modern days. I really enjoyed the touches they added to it which made it seem both like rereading a good book and fresh and new. It has lgbt and racial rep that is more woven in, and it erases the stereotypes that were in the original little women.
(November 21, 2024 - 11:00 pm)
General
1. If they're done well, either one is fine.
2. Media seems to be doing both a lot, and very little, rep-wise. It's like everyone's bending over backwards trying to throw in characters of various skin colors and orientations and so on, but when you come right down to it, there's hardly any representation of different personalities and ideas. And most main characters are still "classic" Americans anyway - it's like all the different ethnicities and so on are just minor characters on the side. As for whether it's good - in general, no. Most of the media plays too much into stereotypes, misrepresentation, lack of real diversity, glamorization, etc.
3. An appropriate amount of diversity would be exactly as much as comes naturally to the author. It shouldn't be artificial, in other words, because that decreases the value and genuinity of the work - and it makes it all meaningless, because the very idea of diversity becomes something artificial. The audience's age range should also be taken into account.
4. Plot. Always. Or whatever else is inspiring for the media creator. Creativity has to flow from a natural place; it's like C. S. Lewis said, when you're writing, you find out what the message of your story is as you go along. Otherwise, the other aspects of your story will suffer. Personally, I'd much rather have a good story. You definitely can be motivated by the desire to help and uplift minority groups, though, so maybe it varies by situation.
5. If you're going to have rep, it should be naturally woven in - like if the main character's best friend is Asian American, it should be because the author naturally imagined the friend as Asian. If the author isn't naturally thinking along those lines, then let's dispense with the rep altogether. It's not so important that the author should fiddle with the story just to include it. One nice thing would be to have descriptions of a character's physical appearance, instead of stipulating that the character is of a particular group. As for scars and symptoms, those had probably better not be subtly woven in at all, because context would be important, especially for highlighting the negativity of violence and illness.
6. Strongly agree. I wouldn't be qualified to answer this question about all groups, but for Hispanics specifically, absolutely YES. Sometimes it's not even steretypes, it's just whatever weird thing the author imagined about Latin culture. Male dominance and family strictness are two myths that are completely untrue and that people need to get over. If anyone dominates in Latin society, it's women, and families are actually really caring and supportive. Meanwhile, other important fundamentals of Latin culture, like Catholicism and humor/color/enjoyment of life, are never included - and those are the positive, important aspects that people could actually benefit from! Seriously.
7. No. Absolutely not. Take Mexican representation, for instance - everybody always seems to be carrying on about ghosts and graveyards and the spirits of the dead and escaping the border patrol, and that's just silly and weird. Mexican culture isn't about that at all. It's about parties, and flowers, and colors, and food, and Catholicism, and family, and friends, and spending Sunday afternoons in your bedroom reading a book or doing nothing, while doves coo outside and the sun shines through your window, and having breakfast in a hotel restaurant with your grandparents and cousins, and making fun of the political system with your friends, and so much else.
There's another aspect of this, which is that the media is kind of steretypizing diversity itself. They include ethnicities and disabilities and orientations galore, but what about personality? What about worldview? What about new morals/beliefs, like socialism? (Haha, if the media really want to be diverse, they should feature a Marxist main character, but they're never going to do that, which just shows you how "inclusive" they really are.) While they glamorize outer aspects of a character, like appearance, they don't go any further. I personally would love to see a strong, friendly, confident, fun-loving, enthusiastic, caring (ahem, all you egotistical modern heroines) heroine, but I've never encountered one. I've related to characters only rarely, regardless of their ethnicity or gender - and being the partly-Latina one here, I'd technically be benefited by greater rep, but it honestly doesn't make that much difference. Instead, it's the deeper aspects of a character that really define him or her, and the media is completely ignoring that. There's a real lack of new, original voices in the media. The media should include authors from other countries (as opposed to just Americans) - or authors who refuse to do product placement, or who want to write about climate change, or who want to portray ordinary happy families.
Anyway, coming back to the Mexican representation, it's totally understandable that people can't represent it properly. To understand a culture, you have to have lived in the place and spoken the language and all the rest of it. So they should stop with trying to "represent" us! If only the media would realize that Mexicans aren't just feeble dependents who can only do things if they read books about people who look like them. It's condescending.
8. By now you probably have a pretty good idea of my pet peeves, but here's a specific list:
-Ghosts, spirits of the ancestors, supernatural things in general, and the border patrol in Mexican-American stories.
-Glamorization of lesbian and gay characters, which seems to happen a lot in romcoms.
-Dividing people up into specific subgroups and labeling them, making it seem as if your label is the only thing that defines you.
-The pure egotisticalness of it all. Yes, it's lovely to include many voices and all that. But it makes you think so much about yourself, yourself, yourself - instead of thinking about others, and what you share with them, and how you can help them. Diversity, as it's currently being handled, individualizes society. Which is not good, because people need to work together as a team and look beyond themselves. And it distracts from what is right - the notion that there is also a standard of behavior and morals that everyone should aspire to.
9. So probably things like mental illness should be handled with caution, if at all. It's not that you want to make mental illness seem wrong or sinful, but you don't want to make it seem positive, either. Compassion, rather than admiration or hatred, is the middle balance that the media should try to create. As for violent or perverted characters, they shouldn't be included at all (except as villains or whatever).
Specific groups
1. Americans have the best rep. Girls of all nationalities are very common as well.
2. Capitalist, selfish, disagreeable, unpleasant characters of all types are represented quite enough :/
3. Groups that are lacking rep: People who are facing difficulties or speaking out against the status quo. For instance:
-climate activists! Even Greta Thunberg has completely disappeared from the news, perhaps because she's a serious person who's saying things that the media might not want people to hear.
-people who get sick from Covid. Honestly, there are so many people battling illness and isolation, and nobody ever talks about them. If anything, those who wear masks are ostracized, and it's horrible.
4. Honestly, I really don't know...
5. I don't really know for that question either...
Stories
1. Stories commonly seen in the media:
-Romantic storylines or subplots
-Main character tries to achieve something for her/himself
-Dark, violent plots where there isn't any reference to what is good or right, it's just glorification of violence
-Unhappy, sad, destructive narratives
2. Stories I'd like to see more of:
-Stories featuring strong, charismatic, enthusiastic, caring heroes/heroines whom one can actually relate with.
-The main character tries to achieve something for others
-Plots that glorify goodness, as opposed to Things Improper For The CB
-Positive, helpful, happy narratives
-stories with beautiful, skillful writing
Examples:
1. Not-so-great rep: well, there are lots of media with mainly European-American, straight characters, but like I said, it makes absolutely no difference to me. Still, if you want examples, Kasie West novels and adventure movies are fairly good ones.
2. Great rep: again, how are you defining rep... if you mean skin color/orientation/all that, then practically everything these days seems to include it. Literally, out of all the romcoms I'd read since June 2023, only one or two have purely straight characters. If you mean minorities who are fighting for their very lives, trying to speak up about a world system that isn't letting them be heard, then there's practically nothing. Wonder is really good, though! So's The Rose Maker, a French movie. And then there are nonfiction works like Native: Dispatches from an Israeli-Palestininan Life, by Sayed Kashua, which is really good at portraying the Israeli-Palestinian situation.
Hopefully this was helpful! My views on representation aren't the most conventional... (but then again, that means they should probably be represented lol). If I wasn't clear about something, feel free to ask :) And thanks for posting this survey, it was very interesting!
(November 22, 2024 - 3:04 pm)
If i may ask, how are books glamorizing being queer? I legit am asking here, because that could be an issue, though frankly more likely it’d just be like, showing them not having to deal with all the stuff queer people have to deal with. Are the characters specifically being shown as good specifically for being queer? Or are they just existing? Being like “I’m queer, so I’m better than straight people” is glamorizing being queer. Making comments about being queer - even fun ones! - is just existing. It’s not divisive for a cis girl to say something about being a girl. And it shouldn’t be, but it shouldn’t for queer people either.
I don’t think that including rep is dividing society. I think society is already divided, and rep is just echoing that. Should there be a standard of how people act? Yes, but as things are, queer people are expected to deal with constant questioning and ridiculing and trying to be pushed back in the closet just to exist as themselves, as well as everything else. Those standards of society have to apply to the majority as well as the minority. It’s okay to not understand things, or ask questions, or not get things, but at the same time, it is a major mental health drain on queer people to have to explain that. Over and over. All the time. Mostly to people who don’t actually want to listen. And because most people don’t want to listen and will only get defensive and believe their views further, how are we supposed to not panic when we get asked those questions?
Also, kids need to know that attraction to the same gender exists, in the exact same way that they need to know that heterosexual attraction exists. Because it exists. And at some point they’re going to run into it. I personally don’t see how it’s a destruction of innocence? Kids grow up knowing that heterosexual attraction exists.
Also yeah, the whole war is horrible, and it really needs to get stopped. It’s horrible how politicized it is just to hate all the destruction and violence happening there.
(November 22, 2024 - 6:31 pm)
Ooh, good questions/points! So about the glamorizing thing, it's probably different among book genres, which might be why you're puzzled. It seems to happen a lot in romcoms (and maybe some fantasy too?). So basically, there's nearly always a character, usually the main character's best friend, who's gay or lesbian. And that character is almost always charismatic, good-looking, poised/witty, or something else, and just generally painted as admirable. Examples would be Jay in Debating Darcy - he's the most glamorous character in the whole book, pretty much - and Altagracia in Love in English, who's rich, confident, loyal, and popular. Basically the glamorous characters are always the gay ones. And there's very little reference to the difficulties that being gay involves, so it's kind of unrealistic, which, again, is along the lines of glamorizing. And then the authors themselves sometimes slip in subtle messages about "it's so cool to be gay" - it's pretty subtle, but it's definitely there. If it were just every once in a while, then it would be different, but it's actually a whole trend.
You're probably right about the difficulties of always having to explain things to people (I wouldn't be qualified to judge, but it sounds reasonable). And that's actually one of the major benefits of featuring queer characters - people get so much more used to the whole idea of queerness. I was referring to something a little different, though. Basically it's just that the whole idea of labels and groups and so on really pushes people to think about their "identity." It doesn't even have to be through representation; it seems to be a major trend in the media right now, like in Frozen II where Elsa spends a lot of her time trying to figure out "who she is." It's absolutely great to be figuring yourself out and to know who you are, especially for us adolescents. It's not that you shouldn't give thought to your identity. It's just that there's such a huge trend right now of thinking exclusively about that. Almost all the stories and narratives in the media feature self-discovery and self-identifying at least in part. And when it becomes so omnipresent, it can really have the effect of making you think a whole lot about yourself, instead of trying to help other people. Your main concern becomes "who am I?" which is a self-obsessed concern. As much as adolescence is a time for thinking about yourself, it's also a time for looking beyond yourself. If you don't do that, you never grow up. Anyway, diversity initiatives make it so much more complicated to figure yourself out - you're suddenly expected to ponder all sorts of labels and subgroups, which was honestly not a thing until about twenty years ago or so - and they really push people to think all the time about their identities. Howsoever, the identity trend isn't just due to that, like I said.
Very good point about the heterosexual attraction! But my counterargument is, that's just it - kids don't know that heterosexual attraction exists. Okay, maybe it's not as dramatic as all that. It varies from one kid to another, and of course it depends on age range. Probably most kids from about age eight or so know about birds and bees and all that. But they probably won't really understand it, if that makes sense? Like when my cousin was about nine, she looked up the word "lesbian" in the dictionary, and the definition legit made no sense to her. And just for context, for most of history, kids weren't even told how babies came along; there were all sorts of myths about storks and cabbages and doctors' bags. It's kind of something that you have to figure out for yourself as you grow older.
There's kind of another aspect to this, which is that some things are just private? Not wrong, but private. If a person gets those particular feelings for someone, that's great, but I personally wouldn't need to know about it. And this applies to heterosexual attraction too, by the way. (Love, of course, is quite different - though even that is really intimate.)
Anyway, hopefully this helped answer your questions! This whole topic is really complex and difficult to discuss... but yeah, that's about all I was wanting to say :) And as for the conflict, you're totally right. The media are making such a complicated/false mess out of it :/ I was a little worried the admins wouldn't let that part through, so thanks so much to them for approving it :))
(November 24, 2024 - 7:25 pm)
okay keeping this short bc im a real yapper we all know. this is such a strange hangup to have? firstly, if you compare the amount of gay representation (or, ill say queer representation in general.) we don't really get very much! and maybe these characters are made "stylish," or glamorized. but there are so few of them, and in romcoms especially, they are kept separate from the action! they are not centered, they are made best friends and confidants to the hetero leads. also... and this is not me being rude, i just don't know how else to phrase this... why do you care? really, why? what upsets you about a side character (and it's always a side character) being both gay and cool? because where i live, my identity means i have to travel in groups in my school to avoid being verbally harassed, and im constantly scared of angering someone who might actually try to hurt me! where i live, being queer alone makes me a target, and a weirdo. so maybe it's not reflective of reality, but seeing some cool queer characters doesn't hurt anyone, it counterbalances the other narrative, the one we're actually constantly fed, that we're weird in some way. being gay should be cool.
sure, straight kids don't really understand being queer until they're older. but you're writing as if only straight people exist! as a kid who grew up queer, what little representation i saw in the media encouraged me, kept me going. seeing these people was confirmation that people like me exist, that i wasn't a freak for liking boys and girls, or for wanting to grow out my hair or wear a skirt. that's the only reason i didn't think i was crazy and alone. there's no harm in a straight kid not understanding something, but there is an immense amount of harm in a queer kid not even having any frame of reference for what they are.
there's no pressure on hetero folks to keep their attraction or love for people private. queer folks shouldn't have to either. you personally not wanting to hear about it is perfectly valid, but that's a personal wish you have. queer people shouldn't have to be private, they should have the right to be as loud as they want. it shouldn't be a "seen not heard" situation.
ill answer the main questions soon, rainbow! very interesting :D
(November 26, 2024 - 6:55 am)
ok so first, im not in any way against queer people and i think it's fine for everyone to be who they are. in fact, two of my best friends are lesbian, and they're a couple, and that's great and valid. and @LE, i find it horrible that you've had to go through things like that, and whoever those people are, they're idiots *shakes fist at them* aside from that, though, don't you think it's possible that they feel that way about gay/generally diverse people because of the way books and popular culture portrays them, esp the whole glamorizing aspect? the thing is, there are obv wonderful gay people, like all the gay people here on cb, but there are also obv not-so-nice gay people. it feels a bit like being gay has come to be something that's seen as defining people, a bit like what Poinsettia said, when really, it's only a part of what makes up you. furthermore, although your experience has obviously been that people dont understand queer people and don't want to associate with them, i know other kids who live in places where there's almost pressure to be gay. like, if you're gay you're cool, and if you're not you aren't worth so much. that's obv not good either. i think it's kinda time to find a balance, which a lot of media/books/etc aren't doing well. gay people are just like other people a whole lot of the time, and that's what they should be seen as - normal people who happen to be attracted to people in a different way from the majority. that's totally fine, and they should be able to be that way in peace, w/out feeling either pressured to be that way or pressured to not be that way.
also, abt the romcoms, there are actually some with gay characters (Playing the Palace is a good example of this).
anyway, those are my thoughts! i hope it doesnt offend anyone, and honestly, you're valid.
(November 26, 2024 - 9:17 pm)
i can't really think of anywhere where there would be pressure on a person to be queer beyond inherently queer spaces! could you name one of those places?
and uh queer folks shouldn't have to be nice to be valid. i think i get your point but queer folks should be nice, you know, being nice is the best thing to do! but a queer person being rude doesn't make them no longer valid? i honestly really don't know what you're saying there. if you could elaborate on that that might be helpful.
(November 26, 2024 - 9:59 pm)
forgive me if this is overly abrasive or whatever but frankly your comment probably feels the same to read. so consider it even. I know you're not trying to hurt anyone. And i'm not saying you're a bad person or bad for being cis or anything. i'm just saying that i don't agree with the points you've made.
sure, there are potential ways that the media can “glamorize” being gay. But… the world at large… doesn’t. I don’t know how else to put it, tbh. Of course it’s only part of what makes you you. Sometimes, people don’t see it that way. Sometimes, they see gay people as weird and disgusting before anything else.
Maybe you’re right and there is pressure to be gay in some areas. I would like some examples of it, please. Where they are, and what happened. (There are other reasons these things could happen, and in particular being intersex could have a large overlap, but we’re ignoring that for this ->) I want examples of cis getting stared at in restrooms for being cis and dressing like a cis person. I want examples of, like LE said, a cis person having to travel in groups at school so they don’t get harassed. I want examples of someone telling their parents “oh i’m cis” and getting yelled at and told “you have to be careful being cis, there are so many things about it that are disturbing, and i know you would find them disturbing” (and online places with cis people are saving your mental health.) I want examples where cis people are legally banned from using the restroom that assigns with their gender, especially considering that being visibly queer in the “wrong” bathroom can be dangerous. I want examples of cis people being treated like freaks just for existing. I want examples where cis people are only the token cool cis friend, and everyone else in the world is gay, and all the gay people hate them for being cis. I want examples of cis people having to go out of their way to find clothes that don’t make them hate themselves, and society not wanting them to. I want examples of cis people not being allowed to grow their hair a certain way specifically because it would make them look cis. (note: cis people might not be allowed to, but only because then they would seem less in line with their gender “more trans” even if they aren’t) I could give so many more examples, but that’s beyond the point.
Give me the examples, then we can talk.
Also, anyone participating in the “it’s only cool to be gay” thing is coming from a culture where it’s not cool to be gay, at all. If you’re in a very queer-friendly area, you might not feel it, assuming you’re cishet. They might.
Also, how does not-nice gay people come in at all? There are nice cishet people and mean ones. They’re still cishet. Of course some people are not nice, and that’s not okay, but that still doesn’t change the overarching things.
I’m trans, nonbinary, aroace, and gay (that part’s complicated, just ignore it for now). I can remember many times feeling pressured to be cishet. I can never once remember being pressured to be queer.
(November 26, 2024 - 11:14 pm)
replying to both of u:
yeah no i basically meant everyone's valid, queer or not, whatever you do, whoever you are, you have reasons for being you and that's totally fine. and obv theres discrimination against gay people in some places and thats horrible, i condemn it and i know that its still a problem. for an example of a place where theres pressure to be gay, my high school, for one. some of my friends/people i know have felt like they kinda "had" to be gay or they didnt really count. like they should be gay not bc of their actual attractions, but just bc its the thing to do. what i was getting at was that the media makes gay people seem different - cool different, which is way better than bad different, but it's still different and id appreciate it if they could just say that we're all people and should treat each other as such.
anyway, like i said, dont mean to hurt anyone's feelings and these are just a couple of general thoughts i had
(November 27, 2024 - 4:48 pm)